Sarah Kroger: The spiritual deserts that we find ourselves in… actually, God invites us there sometimes because those are the places where we can find freedom. Those are the places where we can find Him in ways that we wouldn’t or in ways that we don’t when things come easy to us.

Finding God in Our Spiritual Deserts: Sarah Kroger & Clare McCallan – Episode #420

Narrator: Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. This week, we are delighted to have Sarah Kroger, a talented singer/songwriter and worship leader from Nashville, Tennessee. Sarah shares the early days of her creative exploration while facing bullying, and how when she attended a transformative youth conference, she realized that faith could be something that was alive in your life, not just a box to be checked off on Sundays.

Later in the episode, we’ll hear from Clare McCallan, an accomplished author and creative director of St. Joseph’s Home for Artisans in Boston. Clare shares her experience of taking a leap of faith, banding together with the local artist community, and restoring an old convent to become a vibrant place that nurtures and cultivates young artists.

Let’s begin with Sarah’s story.

Sarah Kroger: My name is Sarah Kroger. I am a singer/songwriter/worship leader from Nashville, Tennessee—originally from Florida—and I lead worship and write songs around the themes of Jesus and the gospel stories and just faith and life, honestly. And we travel the world getting to lead people in song to Jesus. It’s a pretty amazing life. 

I grew up in a super musical home. My parents were both involved in music ministry before I was born, so we were always at church. I mean, all the time. There was music playing in our house all the time, literally nonstop, musicals and all different genres: Disney songs, Simon & Garfunkel, Christian music. I think that really instilled in me just a love for just music in general.

We were in nature a lot. We had a huge backyard. And so I had a wild imagination growing up. I mean, I could play pretend for hours and hours on end by myself. I just loved entering into my own little worlds. I kind of had an amazing childhood, to be honest. It was a really special ten years, until my parents got divorced. And that’s kind of when things went awry. 

My parents got divorced when I was ten, and we had to move cities to start fresh. And so, I found myself in the fourth grade in a completely new school, completely new people. And I was kind of a quirky kid. You know, if you think about a kid who was raised in this really creative, musical environment, like, it’s natural to be a little bit quirky. And I dealt with some bullying in elementary school as a result of that.

But music was such a precious thing to me, and I think I knew that it was a gift that I had. I knew that it was a special thing to me, and so I didn’t want it to be torn down like the rest of me had been torn down. And so I just kind of built walls around it, and it became this thing that I entered into only by myself. I refused to sing in front of my family for years. I just kind of locked away this gift and threw away the key and was like, I will never, ever sing in front of anybody. It’ll just be something that I do for myself. 

“I refused to sing in front of my family for years. I just kind of locked away this gift and threw away the key and was like, I will never, ever sing in front of anybody. It’ll just be something that I do for myself.” – Sarah Kroger 

Learning to See Jesus As Alive

Fast forward to years later when I went to a youth conference for the first time. I experienced contemporary worship music, and for the first time kind of had this realization that Jesus was a real person, that faith could be something that was alive in your life. It wasn’t just a box that you checked off on a Sunday. Jesus was a real person, and He wanted access to my life, and I wanted Him to have access to my life. And it was really through the worship music that I first encountered that kind of language. And it taught me how to pray and how to have a relationship with God, you know?

I felt like God was lovingly tapping me on the shoulder and just saying, “Sarah, I gave you this gift not just for yourself. I gave you this for my kingdom. I gave you this gift for my glory. And by you hiding it, it’s not doing anyone any favors. So will you step out in faith? Will you say yes to me?”

“I felt like God was lovingly tapping me on the shoulder and just saying, ‘Sarah, I gave you this gift not just for yourself. I gave you this for my kingdom. I gave you this gift for my glory. And by you hiding it, it’s not doing anyone any favors. So will you step out in faith? Will you say yes to me?’” – Sarah Kroger

I went back to my church, and I started leading worship on Sundays. [I was] absolutely terrified. It wasn’t like I said yes and everything fell into place. I was still shaking from head to toe, probably sounding like some dying animal every time I got up on the podium to sing.

I taught myself early on when I first started singing in front of people how to close my eyes and forget the people in the room and just enter into it as a prayer. Like, literally, I had to just kind of recenter myself and be like, This is not about me. This is not even about the people in this room. This is about glorifying God and giving this back to God because He’s asked me to do it.  

I felt convicted that God was inviting me to say yes. And so I just kept saying yes and yes and yes. And one little yes after another, my courage ended up growing, and it turned into literally the thing that I do now. 

It’s such a gift to my life to be able to play in churches, because I feel like I have literally gotten to see the church alive all over the world. And it’s such an encouraging thing to see, especially in this day and age when it feels like people are turning away from the church. To be able to see it firsthand, alive, and the ways that the gospel is still at work in the world is really encouraging. And I love getting to see that and experience that and be a part of that.

Making Music a Safe and Welcoming Place

Trust is something that I think a lot of us struggle with, I definitely do. I like to be in control. And so oftentimes I just try to set the stage and follow where He’s leading. I’m really just trying to listen to His voice and follow where He leads, just recognizing that I’m not in control of anything in my life, in any aspect. And the fact that my work reflects that and my ministry reflects that is just like a constant reminder of just an invitation to trust. 

In a lot of ways, it’s like being being able to create spaces where people feel safe enough to come to God just as they are, and feel safe enough to bring their questions and whatever they’re walking through into a worship set, into a session that we’re having, into whatever it is that we’re doing, to be able to foster that kind of environment through music.   

“In a lot of ways, it’s like being being able to create spaces where people feel safe enough to come to God just as they are, and feel safe enough to bring their questions and whatever they’re walking through into a worship set, into a session that we’re having, into whatever it is that we’re doing, to be able to foster that kind of environment through music.” – Sarah Kroger  

Embracing Our Spiritual Deserts

I think I’ve experienced a lot of despair over the past few years, and also a lot of shame around wrestling with faith. Because when I was younger, I was kind of taught, like, if there’s a problem between you and God or if there’s a problem in your faith life, it’s always your fault because it’s never God’s fault. And I just don’t think that that way of thinking about it has actually served me well, because then I took on all of this shame for walking through just really big questions that came out of nowhere. It just happened to me. And all of a sudden, I just felt like I couldn’t feel God’s presence like I used to, or as easily as I could in the past. 

Something that I’ve learned really in the last year is that God desires our honesty. And for me, that means bringing my questions to Him. For me, that means bringing my doubts to Him and recognizing that He’s a big God, that He can handle it. That not only can He handle it, He wants it. He desires to meet us there. He already knows what’s in our hearts and what’s in our minds. 

I feel like it’s been more of an unraveling of sorts, sorting through the mess and the noise from the truth and trying to rediscover and reroute myself about who God is and even expand my understanding of who God is. If we can’t be brutally honest with God, then who can we be honest with? 

“If we can’t be brutally honest with God, then who can we be honest with?” – Sarah Kroger 

“No Filter” really is a song of brutal honesty and kind of saying to God, “Can you handle this? Can you handle me? Do you still love me even in my questions?” And the answer that I’ve found is yes, He loves us no matter what.

The spiritual deserts that we find ourselves in… actually, God invites us there sometimes because those are the places where we can find freedom. Those are the places where we can find Him in ways that we wouldn’t or in ways that we don’t when things come easy to us, you know?

The suffering in my life has led me to deeper revelations and freedom and joy than I could have ever anticipated. I’ve also recognized that there is fruit on the other side of this season that I would never get to, and would never have gotten to if I didn’t first walk through it. And that God has met me in it, even if He’s been silent. Silence does not equal absence. It’s not the same thing. And we are never alone. He says, “I am with you always.” That’s a promise of God, even in the midst of the darkness.  

“We are never alone. He says, ‘I am with you always.’ That’s a promise of God, even in the midst of the darkness.” – Sarah Kroger 

Finding God in the Quiet

Recently, I connect with God through silence, which is really interesting. There’s so much noise in our life. There’s so much noise in my life every single day, whether it’s social media, emails or texts or whatever. There’s always notifications and all these things happening outside of my control, and it can just feel so chaotic. And so I found myself just trying to sit in silence. It is a practice that you have to start slow with. If you try to go into silence for twenty minutes the first time, it’s not going to go well. It’s a muscle you have to build. But I have found such peace entering into the silence and not having any expectation for what it feels like or what I hear in the midst of it, or what I want to get out of it. It’s just entering into the silence with God and entering into relationship with Him for who He is and abiding with Him, and allowing my mind to just be still with Him. 

Jesus Listens, May 27th: 

My ever- near God, 

Sometimes I feel as if I’m in a desolate place— devoid of Your loving companionship. But whether I sense Your Presence or not, I can call out to You and know that You are with me. The Bible promises that You are near to all who call on You. As I whisper Your Name in tender trust, help me cast my doubts to the wind! 

I need to spend some time telling You about my troubles and seeking Your guidance. Then I’ll change the subject to You— praising You for Your greatness and majesty, Your Power and Glory. I’ll thank You for the many good things You have done and are doing in my life. Lord, You are richly present in my praise and thanksgiving! 

Your Word instructs me to taste and see that You are good. The more I focus on You and Your blessings, the more fully I can taste Your goodness. The sweetness of Your unfailing Love delights me. The heartiness of Your mighty strength encourages me. You satisfy the hunger of my heart with the Joy and Peace of Your Presence, assuring me: “I am with you and will watch over you wherever You go.” 

In Your generous Name, Jesus, 

Amen

Narrator: To learn more about Sarah Kroger, please visit www.sarahkroger.com. Be sure to check out her music, including her latest album titled, A New Reality, on your favorite platform. 

Stay tuned to Clare McCallan’s story after a brief message.

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Our next guest is Clare McCallan, a writer, host, and producer on Catholic TV. When given a unique opportunity through a church leader to support local artists, Clare embarked on a dream with humble beginnings that would bloom into a thriving community.

Clare McCallan: My name is Clare McCallan, and I’m the creative director of St. Joseph’s Home for Artisans, a Catholic Christian artist residency here in the north end of Boston. So we bring in young believers with exceptional creative gifts from around the country. We give them a place to live and grow in community, both spiritually and artistically, while giving back to their community through those same gifts. I’m also an author, and then I’m also a writer, host, and producer on Catholic TV. I co-host their morning show, This Is The Day. And this past year, my own original variety show, The Renaissance Room, that I write and produce, premiered on Catholic TV as well. 

I grew up in a small town in Massachusetts called Groton. I’m an only child. I grew up cradle Catholic, wonderful mom and dad, and I definitely always had a bit of a creative streak. I did a lot of musical theater. If you’d asked me when I was a kid, I think that’s where I thought this would all lead. But I liked writing back then, too. And I just have always had more imagination than anything else. Most people maybe have a little bit of balance between analytical and creative gifts. As both a strength and a fault, I am just all imagination, and I’ve been that way my whole life. I probably tried to deny it a little bit when I was younger and balance it out, but my life has been much happier ever since I’ve decided to just go all in on the way God made me and just live in pure creativity, both in my personal life and in my professional life, and just live an integrated life of the creative and the artist.  

“My life has been much happier ever since I’ve decided to just go all in on the way God made me and just live in pure creativity, both in my personal life and in my professional life.” – Clare McCallan

Amazing Things Come From Humble Beginnings

My time in the art residencies in Gamli Skoli on a little island off of the tip of Iceland, and then the Grünewald Guild—which is an ecumenical art residency in Leavenworth, Washington—were hugely formative. And those are what planted the seeds for me to want to create one of my own here in Boston. I decided to create St. Joseph’s Home for Artisans out of pure necessity, like all the best things in life. Cities—especially here in Boston, one of the most expensive cities in the country—are so cost prohibitive to any young person, but especially a young person pursuing creative work.

I was actually a full time spoken word poet. And I was traveling to universities, churches, community centers. And I’d been working for a really long time in New York City, getting my bearings, learning the art form. I was a dog walker, babysitter, camp counselor. I worked at a thrift store in Manhattan. And I came to a place I’d never been before called St. Leonards, here in the north end of Boston. And afterwards, the parish priest came over to me and he said, “That was incredible. I want to support more young Catholic artists. What do you need?” I said, “We need a place to live.” And so he said, “I actually have one.” Which I mean, what a God thing, right? How often do you tell someone, “I need a building,” and they’re like, “Don’t worry about it.” He brought us over to an old convent a couple of blocks from church here in the beautiful north end. 

I tell everybody, you know, the church is supposed to be pouring into our younger generations. And this is such a beautiful example. Father Michael has done such a great job of preserving spaces in this neighborhood that can be passed down to empower the next generation so that we can stay in these city spaces. Artists are culture influencers, and a lot of American culture stems out of metropolitan areas. So it’s really important that we’re here creating work in cities, affecting young adult culture here in cities, because it’s all a ripple effect out from there.

[Father Michael] runs up to the fifth floor of this old convent, and it was completely dilapidated. You peel back the wallpaper, and it’s just like streaks of horrible black mold. There were unbelievable numbers of ancient Tom Brady posters because this is Boston. But he just said, “If you can fix it, you can have it.” It’s an old convent, and for anyone who doesn’t have a lot of convent experiences, it’s where the nuns live. And it’s seven tiny bedrooms. And the big joke with them is that none of the bedrooms have closets, because nuns only have one outfit, so they don’t need them. And unfortunately, we do need them. So everybody has all of their dresses and their suits tucked into drawers. And this was the floor that needed the most renovation, because it’s the closest to the roof where there were leaks, which is why we had water damage. The floors were sticky. We replaced the windows because oh my gosh, I wasn’t told until after the first winter that our sweet friend Fernando would wake up in the morning with snow on his face. Apparently his window was missing a pane and he didn’t want to complain to anyone, so he’d wake up in the morning with snow on his face and wipe it off and go about his day. Slowly but surely, we did the whole building. The other floors were not as rough, which is funny that this is the one that we moved into, but it’s the one that had the most bedrooms, so it was the one we could do the most good with. 

And so we blessed it on March 19th, that St. Joseph’s feast day. And we named the place St. Joseph’s Home for Artisans. And we welcomed our first artist on June 1st of that same year. 

It’s a revolving door of young people. The rest of the building began to be fixed up, all five floors, and began to house a group of young men who do homeless ministry locally. The Catholic school systems here needed more young teachers. So they started bringing them in from other cities. Those teachers have lived here. We’ve had men’s recovery communities live here. And in the three years I’ve been here, we’ve housed I believe around forty people and got another ten coming this summer. The place has really shaped up. It’s incredible. I wish you all could see what I’m seeing right now. We have these beautiful murals on our ceilings now. The walls are all crazy colors. And this place has just been, up until now at least, the greatest gift of my life. 

Tuning Out the Noise and Embracing the Process

One of the hard things when you want to create something new is having to deal with other people’s comments. Even if you have all the courage in the world, it can be hard. It was something we were so excited about, and it was such a massive effort that was going to take years. That’s usually what dreams look like and what amazing things look like at the beginning. Everybody wants the product, nobody wants the process. We serve a God born in a manger. Humble beginnings are not a bad thing. And it was such a powerful gift from God for me to have to go through. It required me to have to say to myself, Even when other people don’t believe in it, I believe in it, and their lack of vision has nothing to do with mine. And it just instilled a level of courage and tenacity, and probably a little chip on my shoulder that I would need for the journey ahead.  

“Everybody wants the product, nobody wants the process. We serve a God born in a manger. Humble beginnings are not a bad thing.” – Clare McCallan 

We’re trying to create a safe space for creatives and for creative work, and to create perhaps a new, almost private context for yourself to take risks creatively and personally. For any of our listeners, I would really encourage you to create outside of the context of what can feel like an inhibiting small town, or the feeling of everyone knowing you, fear of people judging you. You can create those spaces in your hometown. I’m from Boston. So for me, in the end, it was about creating a space where I’m from. It’s one of those things where if it’s really on your heart, I want this adventure. I want this creative opportunity, there are creative ways of doing that. 

The World Needs What Only You Can Create

Wherever you are, and you’re listening right now, the world needs what only you can create. God has equipped you with a unique set of gifts and a power for prolific love to create things that will change your world, the world around you, and the world as a whole. And your gifts as a craftsman, your ability to create, has the power to save souls around you. Your witness matters. Your gifts—even if you aren’t aware of them—matter, and the world needs what only you can create. It can be simple. It can be almost crude and still good. 

“God has equipped you with a unique set of gifts and a power for prolific love to create things that will change your world, the world around you, and the world as a whole. And your gifts as a craftsman, your ability to create, has the power to save souls around you. Your witness matters. Your gifts—even if you aren’t aware of them—matter, and the world needs what only you can create.” – Clare McCallan

I would also argue that whether or not people recognize it… perhaps some of my hyper-analytical counterparts would be like, “Oh, I’m not creative, I don’t have an artistic bone in my body.” But since you are created in the image of the Creator, you have to be bearing His likeness in all things, and that includes His creative nature. And there is a way to unite to God through creative practices that are totally unique. And if you’re not taking a chance and trying it, you’re really missing out on that. 

Narrator: To learn more about Clare McCallan, check out her newest book titled, Courage to Create: Unleashing Your Artistic Gifts for Truth, Beauty, and Goodness, wherever you buy books.

If you’d like to hear more stories about harnessing our creativity for God’s kingdom, check out our interview with David & Tamela Mann. 

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Next week: Dr. Alan Weissenbacher

Next time on the Jesus Calling Podcast, we’ll hear from Dr. Alan Weissenbacher, who shares what he’s learned about the brain’s ability to adapt and change, and the role of faith in reshaping the way we think. 

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher: When you read Scripture, you’re strengthening that part of your brain. And the parts that are the strongest are the parts that fire automatically. And so if you set your brain up that way through your daily exercise, whenever something comes at you during the day, that is the direction your brain is going to want to go.